CONVERSATIONS LIKE THESE

Since I have made the occasion to have these kinds of conversations, and the people who I’ve interviewed have been kind enough to accept, show up and engage with me, it comes up occasionally the importance of having these kinds of conversations around, in Gordon Hall’s words, “the life of being an artist or creative person… [and] all of the things that do or don’t go into supporting the ability to do that work.”[i]

         It came up when speaking with Gregory Bae, particularly in the context of his own work organising in the Asian, Asian-American, and Pacific Islander artist community in Chicago. Greg told me that,

… what would happen was throughout in the past, I would have these one-on-one conversations with these different people. And sometimes we would enter into these kinds of conversations, not dissimilar from what we're talking about right now. And thinking like, man, we need to, like, have more of this. We need to, like have a group or something, need to be able to, you know, support each other, or like air some grievances or something like that. Like, you know, there needs to be a safer space.[ii]

In these interviews I speak to people about a lot of difficult things, from racism to zero-hour contracts to ableism in the art world and what it feels like to try to get back on the treadmill of your career after caring for others or for yourself. Some people I interview are close friends, some I’ve spoken to in one way or another throughout the years, and some people I’ve only ever met through our interview. Either beforehand or within the space of our hour and a half to three hour-long interview, I need to gain their trust. I hope to gain it by being a thoughtful listener, and sharing, when I can and when it is appropriate, times in which something similar has happened to me or when I have felt similarly. I think that it is important within the space of the interview to get to a point where we trust each other, and I hope that I can reinforce that sense of trust with the way that I handle their information after our interview. I think it is important to have these conversations to, like Greg said, be able to “support each other… air some grievances… [and create] a safer space.”[iii]

         Having conversations like these helps remind me why I love art, and a lot of it has to do with the people who I meet, what we get to talk about, and how we care for each other. How is it that these conversations can plug holes where things are missing and highlight what is being overlooked, say in Art School, in favor of conversations around formalism and performances of coolness. In our conversation about what work looks like and how that is shaped and reinforced by Art School, Bella Milroy said,

I guess it's that inner child kind of thing that's missing in a lot of those bits of Academia that like, you know? You do just want to do it because you like it, don’t you? [Laughter] And I think we kind of miss that bit. Like we're doing it because we really love it, don't we? Don't we? Don’t we love this thing? Like I love it. Like, I think it's like the best thing like talking to you, like, what a treat just to get to do this. And like you say, like, your practice is this kind of making tea for one another and chatting.

Yeah, I mean, I think again, the focus in those kinds of structures (I mean, maybe I'm getting too focused on Art School in that respect, but I guess that those structures are replicated in so many ways, aren't they?) But like the one you're so heavily focused on the output, you know, we miss all the kind of ephemeral transitionary kind of moments like this, where we're all just gazing off into space and, and having brilliant ideas about things that would otherwise just get missed and forgotten about because we've got to get on with it and do the thing and make the thing to show people, you know? And something I think we've spoken about over the last 12 months, as you've not been able to access those studio spaces, it's those bits that are the most pressing in terms of wanting to be there and be with other people and have those seemingly insignificant moments with one another. That really supports that creative output.[iv]

         I spoke to Leah Capaldi about the importance of the studio space, not just as a site of production, but of community, and how (wait… is this essay about Art School?),

Like, you learn a lot about community in Art School, you learn a lot about like about friends, and about how to, like the value of studio space goes beyond what you're making there. It's about the kind of chewiness of it, like... the kind of camaraderie in a way of knowing that you're all going through something together at that point.[v]

         Earlier on in our chat, she spoke about the transition between going from that kind of community studio culture in Art School to working alone, and she spoke about how, “to go from that to being solo, feels like isolating isn't quite the right word, it just, it feels like quite painful, actually.”[vi] Later on in our chat, Leah spoke about community and the studio particularly in the context of isolation during the pandemic. She said,

But like, that could be something that we're, in this time, that we can take a bit of comfort in that. Like, knowing that it's not all studio, like, it’s about how we go out and negotiate with the world around us. And yeah, that's, there are so many, I want to say like there aren't so many like barriers to that or something but that's not quite true, like there are. Like, perhaps with who you get to have those conversations with as well, you know? Oh, God, I don't know Kelly. I just don't know. [Laughter] I'll feel quite sad talking about it because it's making me long and really miss it, you know? But that's okay, it's not gonna be like this for much longer. But that's what it is also gorgeous to have this conversation, like I feel really excited by it and really, really quick giving me something to kind of get my teeth into.[vii]

         In lieu of having a studio culture that cultivates community, or in lieu of having a studio at all, perhaps we can have these conversations, these chewy conversations that we can sink our teeth into. Hilary Powell said to me that, “these chances to reflect slightly are quite rare when you’re just in production phases. So, it’s good to stand back a bit… and see how things interconnect.”[viii] So how can we use the time when we’re not in production to talk and reflect? And how can we see the studio space as an opportunity not just for production, but to gather communities of people with whom we can talk and reflect?

         Perhaps we need to have these conversations with a certain set of people on a regular basis, especially if we are single and especially if we work alone. The London-based artist who I spoke to who would like to remain Anonymous suggested,

What if you said, okay, four times a year we’re going to meet, and we’re going to look at how things have been going, and what’s working, and what’s not working. And how we can do it differently, and what we’re going to put in place. So that I don’t repeat this whole year, next year, you know? I’m sure there are some things we can’t change, but what can we change? What can we think about differently?[ix]

         Let’s create safer spaces to gather and to have conversations about our lives that help us to support each other, air some grievances, and reflect. Let’s plan these conversations, and when they happen, let’s sink our teeth into them. These conversations are especially important for those of us who work alone, live alone, and/or are single. These conversations have the potential to be important in figuring out what we can change.

Kelly Lloyd

[i] “Interview with Gordon Hall” Kelly Lloyd. February 15, 2021. http://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/gordon-hall

[ii] “Interview with Gregory Bae” Kelly Lloyd. February 9, 2021.  https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/gregory-bae

[iii] Ibid.

[iv] “Interview with Bella Milroy” Kelly Lloyd. May 8, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/bella-milroy

[v] “Interview with Leah Capaldi” Kelly Lloyd. March 3, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/leah-capaldi

[vi] Ibid.

[vii] Ibid.

[viii] “Interview with Hilary Powell” Kelly Lloyd. April 23, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/hilary-powell

[ix] “Interview with Anonymous” Kelly Lloyd. March 22, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/anonymous