The Artist

      One notable thread between the conversations is my preoccupation with the artist. I guess this project could have also been called These People We Call Artists. I’m interested in who we think artists are, and what we think artists do. My elevator sentence about my PhD topic (which is changing as I write these words) is, “I’m looking at representations of artistic labour in film and television.” Usually, my interviews start off with the standard, “How are you doing?”, “How are you doing?”, and then I say “I’m doing this PhD…”, “What is the PhD about?”, [insert elevator sentence here], and then what follows is an interesting discussion that has helped my research, but sometimes is only included in the podcast or the archive in fragments. This needs to be a longer and more coherent essay than I have time for at the moment, but I figured on this occasion I would at least collect a few of the fragments together.

Who is an artist?

      Gregory Bae and I spoke about how his students, while they might have had professors who were Asian men, might not have had Fine Art professors who were Asian men, causing them to have trouble identifying him as their teacher. Greg said,

      I have this issue, and maybe it's because of how I dress, but a lot of students... (probably well, also my behavior sometimes, like my juvenileness) but, they're surprised that I'm a teacher. But like, you know, at the same time, that kind of adds up to like, maybe these kids just aren't used to seeing especially Asian men as faculty members, Fine Art faculty members rather. I know that there are Asian teachers in other fields, but maybe the Art World hasn't seen that many Asian artists or Art Stars, in the West at least.[i]

I feel like this brings up questions of who do we see as holding authority and knowledge about art, and who do we see as an artist in the West?

Speaking of Art Stars, I was talking with a London-based artist who would like to remain Anonymous about how,

       It’s hard. It’s hard because for us, it’s reality, right, and for other people, they see the stars. Or they have this other narrative of the artist rotting in their garret and suffering. But we know from our experience, and the experiences of all of our friends, that there’s a definite disjuncture. I think there’s lots built around this idea of what success is and looks like.[ii]

I feel like this brings up questions of the dichotomy we have of successful artist and unsuccessful artist. A successful artist is an Art Star and that looks like this one thing and they make this one thing, whereas an unsuccessful artist is starving and, “rotting in their garret” suffering… but still making paintings probably.

I spoke with Leah Capaldi, who works in the crossover area between the disciplines of sculpture and performance about media representations of artists, and she said,

Well, I suppose that is the thing, isn't it? Like, the people like, that it does just play into these ideas of, of artists being sort of something which fits really easy into a kind of commodifiable structure, you know? … We talked about representations of artists, you know, on TV and stuff, and I just think that brilliant bit where they try and rip off Marina Abramovich in Sex in the City. She kind of wanders in, and says, “I wonder if that artist is still there?” That's it! Performance artists are always sort of absolutely nuts. They exist outside of the, I wouldn’t say like the rational world, but they there's this kind of, like, time that you that, that you might go meet somebody for a cup of coffee, or you go to work nine till five, and the performance artists on screen is always the person who's up late, who's living outside of the kind of, like, I suppose, could you call it, like, the capitalist day, or the capitalist hours or something like that? The performance artist is always the total weirdo, you know? And I wonder if that's because what they do doesn't fit into the, you know, the systems that nine to five fits within.[iii]

  I feel like this brings up questions of how the archetype of the artist is someone who exists outside of the capitalist day, and perhaps the further away the artist on screen is from a painter, the further away they are from this commodifiable structure.

What do artists make?

Gordon Hall and I spoke about the practicalities of being an interdisciplinary artist and how some institutions, museums in particular, (while they want to work with interdisciplinary artists) don’t have the capacity to accommodate for their needs. Gordon gave an example of an instance that they’ve, 

…had many times with museums with the lecture performance form is they want that, they want artists to give performances instead of just talks and whatever. But then when you’re like, I need this many dollars, and I need to be able to bring an object in, and I need to not be wearing shoes, and I need… And they’re like, “Oh no.” Like the registrar doesn’t know what to do with that object because is it an artwork or not? Literally, I mean, it’s so funny. Like, we don’t know whether we should insure that thing, because we don’t know whether or not it’s an artwork or not (that’s the point). Isn’t that what you wanted? But you know, or Education doesn’t have the budget to pay for this, because if it’s a performance, then it’s Curatorial and their commissioning work, so you can’t call it a performance, you have to call it a program. Anyway, it is just so so so funny. I mean, funny is one word for it. It’s exemplary of the difference between being interested in interdisciplinary forms and actually restructuring things to be able to accommodate them.[iv]

  I feel like this brings up questions of what kind of art we assume artists make, and how interdisciplinary artists, by expanding the boundaries of mediums or disciplines, question this, and in turn highlight how this questioning (while important) might not structurally or spatially have a place inside of art institutions.

      In Dominique White and I’s conversation, we spoke about how she got connected to her gallery, among other things. She said,

      I think for me, it’s really important to work with someone who understands that the work is difficult, and that it’s not always going to be sellable… But, but also, I think it’s like, we need to expand what we consider as like, work as well. I mean, sure, like, I’d say, like, probably 80% of galleries do want you to make a certain type of work. Whether that fits into like sculpture, painting, drawings, or whatever, or video work, you know, like there’s a very certain criteria… But yeah, I think I do think part of it is essentially, like the discourse that you frame the work with. Because if you say, yeah, it’s supposed to destroy itself, I think it is about finding a collector or like a museum that can, like, take that. That can understand that. It’s rare, but yeah, it’s possible.[v]

       I feel like this brings up questions of who the artist is in relationship to their work. If there is a set definition of what work looks like, then there is also going to be a set definition of who an artist is in relationship to whether they make this certain kind of work or not.

The label of an artist in public

Bella Milroy and I spoke about how this label of being an artist, while problematic, can also be something that you can use to reclaim your labour and your time… which is also maybe why the archetype of an artist is so attractive. Bella told me,

Yeah, so difficult. It definitely reminds me of just like, you know, there are so many different kinds of ways in which we experience that outfit of the artist, and what that means to a kind of public display of that. Because for me, the first time I ever called myself an artist was in response to a really classic early years of illness conversation that I would have with people I didn't really know. They would ask me, like, “What do you do?” And I would crumple into an anxious blob. And this was still like, maybe like a couple of years in, so I was still floating around in this, like, leave of absence space where I wasn't at Uni, but I didn't really know what was going to do and... Very much on a kind of a space where we were, you know, expecting things to be very different very quickly. And, yeah, realizing that I should have just said, “I'm an artist” was like, so incredibly powerful and transformative to what those conversations ended up like, because, I mean, most of the time you say that to people, and they're like, “Ooh, how interesting!” Like, and that's not to kind of make myself into this interesting, cool person or whatever. But it just takes back the ownership of who I am in those kinds of spaces. I get to decide what you think of me…

I think that being able to put that value on my time in that way was yeah, just completely transformative in that respect. And so, yeah, the artist thing is so complicated, because it's got such a capacity for that power and authority and autonomy like that, but then also there's this skewed public kind of performance to it as well, that can be really tricky.[vi]

I feel like this brings up questions of agency and opens up this possibility that one could use the label of an artist for good instead of evil.

Speaking of public performances of artistry, this is something that I spoke to Matilda Moors about specifically within the context of the building work done at the Royal Academy which put a hallway right through the Royal Academy Schools. Matilda said,

I guess for me it's tied up in stuff about expectation of what you're asked to show people. I'm not interested in people seeing me lugging a bunch of wood down the corridor. I'm interested in someone coming to see my art and engaging with it. I know there are certain people who are quite shy but dress in a very particular way who would have their photos taken. This is the place where you come to work. You wouldn't put a walkway through an office… For me [the walkway] feels like the physical embodiment of content provision. It's not the thing but social media adjacent and about lifestyle and constant labour. You’re always producing something or providing something. You can always look and there's always something happening. So, there's no space for privacy which is why I have a problem with it.[vii]

      I feel like this brings up questions of public and private, and how the conditions created to facilitate performances of artistry are often at odds with the conditions necessary for artists to work.

The label of the artist in private

This might connect to something I spoke with Warren Andrews about. He identifies himself not as an artist, but as a researcher. He said,

Around artists, I'm very keen to distinguish myself from them. Not to detach myself from them, but to distinguish myself as not an artist. Around artists, I feel very comfortable saying, my sense of what that means is radically different, but I'm still tentative about using that way to describe myself. Around non-artists, I call myself a researcher. But I worry that if I turn around to a group of people who are non-artists of my class, the working class, that they see an artist as bougie and they can't see any sense of how I'm still attached to them and can serve them. I have an aspiration to serve that community, and to play a role in taking what I think is so important about those communities as they understand themselves and develop it… I want to develop a politics that serves my parents, the people I grew up with and the friends that I have.[viii]

I feel like this brings up questions of who you are trying to speak to and align with when you call yourself an artist.

      Speaking of parents, Nicole Morris said something about the label of the artist in terms of family. She said,

And I think there's something in that isn't there in terms of representation of that artist being, you know, free of any life burdens, any life, you know, troubles, which are often monetized issues, right? You know, they're in the place in the world they want to be, they have probably no family... like the family is absent. The weather is beautiful. They have no mental health, you know, conditions. They are just living this time, apart from perhaps a slight concern whether the pigment is right, yeah? And they just can paint. And it’s always paint as well. Which is, I think, is interesting, right? You're always going to paint. So then how does the how does the artist that doesn't paint exist? How does the artist that has all these other commitments [exist]?

Yeah, and also, like, that image of that artist is so far removed from so many people's family like, like heritage, that you could never, like, hold your head up in a family dinner and be like, “I want to be that.” Because they'd be like, “Are you joking?” But it is just this funny thing, where we can just throw it around. There's no value in that unless there's that, that value of that image of that white man in that ridiculous loft apartment. [Laughter][ix]

        I feel like this brings up questions of how the value of being an artist to other people is in how closely you fit this image, and the problem with this image (among other things) is that it doesn’t include many people. If you are one of those many people not included, then the value of being an artist is lost on people, especially your family for a number of reasons.

Christine Urfe Bendt and I spoke about one of those reasons. She said, “I touched clay for the first time at the school when I was 20 years. And then I told my mom, ‘I would like to be a potter.’ And she said, 'Oh, no, no, don't be a potter because you'll get poor.' And then I said, 'Okay', and then I got [to be a teacher] instead.”[x]

I feel like this brings up questions of how an artist fits into capitalism, and on a very practical level, people will worry about how you’ll earn money if you’re an artist (especially your family).

This is something I spoke with Attila Kiss about. He said,

… it took me that one year to be able to acknowledge myself as a writer. Because I am not acknowledged by my environment as a writer, especially by my family as a writer. So, this is the point, that you want to work, you are willing to work, but at the same time, most of the people around you say that what you want to do is not work. It is of no use because you are not contributing to the country’s economy. You are not making money. You are not making anything useful. So my problem was that I could not consider myself as a writer, I could not say that I am a writer, because that is actually the same if I would say that I am doing nothing. So this scholarship [from Kulturkontakt Austria] is actually my first acknowledgement, this is the first time that I can consider myself as a writer, because I am spending my time here as a writer. I get my scholarship for being a writer.

That is the point, that you are not being acknowledged for what you want to do so society puts us in a situation which is not comfortable for us. Because society expects us to do the sheer hard work…that they are doing. So again, for example, my family, my father is an electrician. He doesn't like his job but he has been doing it for the last 40 years. And, he was not very happy with doing that over again and again and again, but he did not see any other option. He said to himself, 'I have a family. I need to earn some money, and that's the thing. That is ok. That is the project for my life.' Actually that's what my family is expecting from me. That I would just earn enough money, and that is the project for my life. I think that's the point in the whole of society. That you are forced to choose something that people would pay for, that is useful for the economy, so that everyone has more money.[xi]

  I think this brings up questions of acknowledgement of our profession, and also how our ability to work is disconnected from our willingness to work.

Communication Difficulties

I spoke with Brad Feltham, the CEO of the Artists’ General Benevolent Institution (AGBI) about the silence around issues affecting artists, in part, because of the need for artists to preserve a certain narrative around their work for the sake of their career. He said,

We recognise, in the years to come, a need to develop fundraising - like all charities - because we've been a very discreet and confidential organization and our profile in the contemporary art world needs developing. Who we help and how we help is never discussed. We're not able to because it's private and a lot of artists that I see worry. They don't even tell their gallerists they're ill if they can hide it. I know a couple of artists with breast cancer who haven't told their gallerist because they just think their career will start to really falter if their gallerists know. I was quite surprised because I thought the gallerist would be really supportive of that artist... but they don't want them to know at all… If something awful comes along, an artist's life/career can just all [fall apart] unless you're really successful. Then you can take these bumps and you can take these knocks. But I know a lot of artists aren't [able to].[xii]

I think this brings up questions of how artists preserve the narrative of the artist out of fear of jeopardizing the viability of our careers.

Speaking of career, Elena D’Angelo is not an artist but works in the arts as a producer. In our interview, she told me about a job she had just applied for.

So my job pretty much doesn't exist. So I had to change fields. That was the only way of like, existing again, as a professional. And when I did, I found out that our world doesn't exist for the rest of the people, which is also interesting. We don't do anything pretty much for any of them.

[I went in for an interview with a company that organizes events, and this lady] was like, 'Yep, I mean, I don't know, like in the arts, it's very different.' I'm like, ‘Well, I mean, I've seen some of your work, I've... you know, I've done that stuff.’ But she... they didn't get it. The funny thing is that at the end, she offered me... so she had two internships open, and of course, I was presenting myself as a Producer. She offered me an internship in the Creative Department, where they do research for events, for like the conceptual part of events. And I was like, why are you doing that? Because I come from the arts? They don't care for the fact that I worked, you know, on the technical side. That I was the one working with the contractors laying down carpets, working with technicians and AV people and talking about projectors all day. No, you care about the fact that I work in, I was working in the arts.

So that is also interesting. Like the image we project, like what the world sees when they look at us. And also they think, 'Oh, well, you did production in a museum what was that like? Painting paintings?' And you're like, well, have you seen Contemporary Art recently? Because it's different.[xiii]

  I feel like this brings up questions of how people silo the arts although the work we do is directly translatable to things that people understand, could use, and tend to pay for.

Kelly Lloyd

[i] “Interview with Gregory Bae” Kelly Lloyd. February 9, 2021.  https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/gregory-bae

[ii] “Interview with Anonymous” Kelly Lloyd. March 22, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/anonymous

[iii] “Interview with Leah Capaldi” Kelly Lloyd. March 3, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/leah-capaldi

[iv] “Interview with Gordon Hall” Kelly Lloyd. February 15, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/archive/gordon-hall

[v] “Interview with Dominique White” Kelly Lloyd. February 1, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/dominique-white

[vi] “Interview with Bella Milroy” Kelly Lloyd. May 8, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/bella-milroy

[vii] “Interview with Matilda Moors” Kelly Lloyd. April 7, 2019. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/archive/matilda-moors

[viii] “Interview with Warren Andrews” Kelly Lloyd. November 19, 2018. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/archive/warren-andrews

[ix] “Interview with Nicole Morris” Kelly Lloyd. February 25, 2021. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/podcast/nicole-morris

[x] “Interview with Christine Urfe Bendt” Kelly Lloyd. October 9, 2018. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/archive/christine-urfe-bendt

[xi] “Interview with Attila Kiss” Kelly Lloyd. April 24, 218. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/archive/attila-kiss

[xii] “Interview with Brad Feltham” Kelly Lloyd. May 3, 2019. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/archive/brad-feltham

[xiii] “Interview with Elena D’Angelo” Kelly Lloyd. November 12, 2019. https://www.thisthingwecallart.com/archive/elena-dangelo